Posts in the Leadership Category at Everyday People, Page 14

Ride the Waves !!

This past week was truly wonderful !! I was on a beach with my family enjoying vacation. Overall, the week was fairly uneventful and relaxing. We did the things we enjoy like playing Euchre, tackling an impossible 1,000 piece puzzle, rounds and rounds of miniature golf and time with our feet in the sand.

I don’t do well just sitting on the beach. I need to move and be a part of the flow of the environment around me. I love watching all of the different people walking by and sincerely wanting to talk to each of them (if it wouldn’t creep them out) and learn about who they are and what they do. I don’t do that . . . much, but the throngs of people fascinate me. I tend to roam up and down the beach to search for shells, look for unique things and take in as much of the experience as I can.

This year we were actually in a condo on the beach. And I mean ON the beach. The endless pulse of the Atlantic Ocean was a constant melody if we were splashing around in the waves, or listening to them as we fell asleep at night. It was a hypnotic symphony that I loved hearing and watching.

My kids and I love bouncing up and down in the waves for hours and hours. We happened to be out in the surf in some rather active waves. In fact, you had to really try to maintain your footing. After fighting this force of nature, you were worn out. We’d catch a breath, grab a drink of water and head right back out into waves.

It reminded me of HR, work and life. It may seem like a stretch, but hear me out. Life comes at all of us in waves. And, like the ocean, the waves never stop. I love it when we expect our employees not to “bring their life” issues to work because that is a flat joke. You can’t wish that people would do this because it’s not possible. Instead, I think we need to have a characteristic that should be in every HR role – resilience. It’s something that we don’t teach, and it’s even hard to think about it. This attribute is needed because waves of different sizes and intensity come at all of our employees every day. Instead of being pulled out by a rip tide, or having the waves of life bury us, we need to be there to pull people up and get them on their feet once again.

Too often we bemoan the circumstances of life that people share with us. We want everything to be just perfect and smooth and get frustrated when it’s not. Being resilient is what is needed instead. If we are the people who can be the example to others, then they will understand they have support. Support is something lacking in most workplaces for our employees. If HR could step in consistently, then people would appreciate this and not be overwhelmed by what comes at them.

Tomorrow, I jump back into the surf, but this time it’s at the office. I can’t wait to be in the waves with all of those around me !!

I Need a Bucket !!

Before you think this is a post about Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life, it really takes a different twist (even though I’m a devout Python fan !!)

There has been a recent trend in blog posts that came to life at work for me this week. I first came across Susan David‘s fabulous post on Harvard Business Review on engagement and meeting employee’s needs. Secondly, I read one of my faves Paul Hebert on Symbolist and his take on finding out what employees want. If you take nothing else from this post, make sure you connect with these great folks and resources !!

This all came to life for me through one of my favorite Team Members. Greg has been with us for over 30 years and he started when he was 16. Greg is fantastic because he has always done the work that most people look down upon or consider below them. Greg started with us as a dishwasher taking care of all of the various dishes from our guests as well as the kitchen equipment. It really is one of the key positions in our pizzerias !! A little over a year ago we asked Greg to try something new and clean the parking lot for our anchor store as well as the parking lot for the Corporate Office.

Greg has always taken great pride in his work, and he welcomed the new opportunity. A few weeks ago he asked me for a new bucket. I didn’t think much of it because he had a bucket, but something seemed wrong. He seemed out of sorts which doesn’t happen that often. When Greg saw me, he’d check in and see if I had found a bucket yet. I asked Greg what kind of bucket he wanted and he said, “Something big and colorful.”

I took Greg’s request to heart and found a beautiful, blue bucket at Lowe’s. I walked it over to the pizzeria and asked the GM to get Greg and have him meet me at the restaurant. He thought something was wrong, but his eyes lit up when he saw me with the new bucket !!

He explained to me that someone had ruined his last bucket and it was great to have something new !!

You need to know something fantastic about Greg !! He is a Special Needs Team Member who is flat awesome. In fact, when we had a group of sixth graders visiting us, Greg asked if he could speak to the class. He was absolutely captivating because he spoke from his heart about how much he loved working for us, and he encouraged all of the kids to make sure to apply to work for us when they turned 16 just like he did !!

A bucket. Something that seems to be insignificant and simple to most, changed Greg’s day. I can see him now across the street as his blue bucket bops up and down as he walks joyfully through the lots.

What’s something that’s staring you in the face which may mean little to you, but would change an employee’s life ?? We make HR so layered and difficult, and miss people’s needs that are right in front of us.

This week, strip off the layers and look for those “bottom shelf” needs that you have been missing. Recognize that it’s important to someone else and then fill their bucket !!

Lava Lamps in India !! #SHRM14

I am slowly, and I mean slowly, coming down from my high state of euphoria I experienced at #SHRM14 !! I really don’t want it to end, but it will have to suffice as my HR peer fix until the next great event.

The entire event was a whirlwind of interactions at a level I hoped would occur. To get jumped in the hallway outside the Exhibition Hall by Simone Carroll saying “Hello Steve !!” in a beautiful Australian accent followed by a hug to exchanging music, ideas and insights with the SHRM HRblog Squad, my time at the Conference was never dull.

I enjoyed the Keynotes for various reasons. I don’t expect them to “hit” or change HR because they are brought to the Conference to give it some “star” power. My fave was David Novak, CEO of Yum! Brands because he was Geeked about people in his business and I truly connected with his approach to HR – especially in the restaurant business.

I loved the concurrent sessions I saw with Jennifer McClure, Jason Lauritsen and Clint Swindall. Each of them had takeaways on how to do things like build the business case for HR and leadership (Jennifer), Become a Social Architect in HR (Jason) and how to become a Weekday Warrior (Clint). Yes, I went to sessions to try to improve humans around me. I just can’t get enough of it to be honest !!

The Exhibit Hall rocked !! I loved the SHRM Store and the Volunteer Leaders lounge was a great place to rest and catch a snack with friends who give their time and efforts to SHRM at the Chapter and State Council level.

The event that sent me truly over the top was the opportunity to speak myself. It was a rush to be opening the activities on Monday at 7:00am to a full room. I am thankful that friends came to show support because I love seeing them all the time. I was even more excited to see a room of unfamiliar faces (at least when we started). I met HR peers from Uganda, Saudi Arabia, Denmark, Nigeria, Turkey, the Cayman Islands, Bermuda, Canada and India all in my session. Having a chance to share HR from a different perspective and also reach folks from across the globe . . . . amazing !!

I think the attendees at my session weren’t quite ready to be jacked up that early in the morning. To be able to show HR people that you can have fun, mess with your employees and truly impact the business you work for seemed new to most there. I thought everyone was a bit tentative to start, but by the end of the session people were laughing, smiling and learned what it’s like to be Geeked about HR !!

I challenged the attendees to do something completely radical and say, “Hi !!” to all of the attendees at SHRM14 who weren’t in my session for the rest of the week. I told them I would check on them throughout the week to see how it was going. Amazingly, they told me that others were wondering why they were greeting them. I asked if that discouraged them, and they began to glow with excitement !! They eagerly told me, “No, I keep saying ‘Hi !!’ to more folks now. This is awesome !!”

You see, I think a lot of HR needs to be simplified. People want to engage and be connected – but the difference is that WE have to be the ones to do it instead of expecting folks to just “get it.” One thing to start this is making your office fun. At my session, I closed everything out by telling folks I was adding them to the HR Net (a free resource open to all HR folks) to keep them connected, and I gave away a lava lamp.

When I pulled the name, I stumbled. It was a longer name and I didn’t want to mispronounce it. I got the name out and a wonderful, young lady quietly stood and said, “Yes, that is me. I won.” Meet Jaya from India !!

How cool is it that the 1st time I get to speak at SHRM National, I can plant a cool, hippie HR vibe in another country ??

You see HR – It’s time for us to shine our light within our organizations, our profession and with each other. Well, I’m geeked again just by writing this !! I hope the Conference was fab for everyone who went – and I hope to see YOU at another great HR event sooner than later !!

Being Heard !!

I just returned from #SHRM14 in Orlando. This was the best experience I’ve personally had at a SHRM Annual Conference. I got in a bit earlier than the masses because I was there as part of the Membership Advisory Council (MAC) of SHRM. One of the facets of this role is that we meet with the SHRM Board of Directors as well as the board of the SHRM Foundation.

Our job is to share the feedback, concerns, ideas and pulse of the SHRM Members. It’s really an extremely cool volunteer position to hold because it’s like practicing HR for your Association. We listen to our members and then share with Senior Leaders directly.

I knew that we’d have this opportunity and the other four great ladies I serve with had met with the Boards last year. There was some anxiety because I wasn’t sure what to expect. I’m a huge believer in experiential learning and this was going to be a great experience.

What I found was not only reassuring, but gave me confidence in an organization that I sincerely believe in because we were heard !! When we met with both bodies they listened to what the SHRM members had shared with us, especially about the new SHRM Certification. The feedback we shared was candid, emotional and forthright. It was even described as “unvarnished.”

There was a key distinction about how we approached this opportunity. You see, we made the business case for the feedback and broke it into the areas that fit all of the comments we received. I happened to go to a session led by Jennifer McClure later during the actual conference where she shared the steps to consider when making an HR business case to Senior Management. It looks like we followed the steps well because we gave recommendations for the Board to consider around the next steps of the SHRM Certification evolution.

I want to clear something up that I heard at the Conference as well. I understand that people may not feel the SHRM Board hears people, but I know that not to be true. This is, and will continue to be, a highly emotional issue. The Board Members heard that directly and when we discussed the issue, it was on both a tangible and strategic level.

In the end, we took the first step.

I truly think that is how this work should continue. People are demanding absolutes which is too narrow of an approach. Details need to come – and they will. Communication needs to be better and consistent – and it will be. People need to stay engaged in the process as it rolls out – and they will.

You have to know that I am not someone who is trying to only tout SHRM. This situation allowed the MAC to practice HR. We listened to our constituents and then brought that data to our leaders wrapped in potential solutions and recommendations. We acted as a bridge to not only bring things together, but to move them forward.

For those that know me, I am one of the most fiercely passionate HR pros you’ll encounter. The great folks I serve with are also fiercely passionate business people. We always yearn to be heard and taken seriously as HR professionals. I can tell you that it happens because we experienced it firsthand.

I’m geeked about the level of involvement I experienced and also in working with the leadership of SHRM while being connected to its volunteers. We have hit some bumps and shed some tears. We have raised our voices . . . and we are being heard !!

All MAC’d Up !!

Sitting in an airport terminal gives you a chance to jot down your thoughts if you build in a bit of time. I’m trying to contain my excitement as I get ready to board my flight to SHRM14 in Orlando !! The actual conference doesn’t kick-off until Sunday, but I’m fortunate to head down early as a SHRM volunteer and member of the Membership Advisory Council (MAC).

The MAC is made up of five volunteer leaders who work with five regions of ten states each throughout the US. I am the 2014 Rep for the North Central Region which is basically the upper midwest section of the country. The MAC meets with SHRM State Directors and volunteers throughout the country and listens to their feedback, concerns and suggestions. We get to take their great input directly to the SHRM Board of Directors as well as other SHRM staff. It’s an incredible opportunity that had a very intentional beginning . . .

You see, I have been a SHRM member for many years now. However, when I began getting involved as a volunteer I was someone who commented on the sidelines about all the things that were “wrong” with the association and my local chapter. I was facilitating a monthly HR Roundtable in the late 90’s and was being more and more vocal about my disdain. Now, you have to know, that I had yet to go to a chapter meeting or SHRM event in person. It was just easier to join the negative throng because people seem to get jazzed about it.

One month after a Roundtable, a very engaged member of the Greater Cincinnati HR Association (GCHRA) confronted me. In fact, she pinned me against the wall !! Now, I’m a fairly tall person and this person was not. It didn’t deter her in the least. She said, “Hey Steve, I’m tired of you taking shots at what we do. You aren’t even involved yourself. In my opinion, you need to either get involved or shut up !!”

I was flabbergasted. This is not stereotypical behavior for an HR person. I admired her fervor though and took her up on her challenge. I decided to run for Vice-President of the chapter even though I’d never been to a meeting. I won. From that time I’ve been fortunate to be the Chapter President, State Conference Director for Ohio and State Council Director. I also still run the HR Roundtable each month and am entering my 15th year of being the facilitator.

I wanted to share this because I keep seeing other HR pros who sit on the sidelines and aren’t connected in their field. You may pay your membership dues, but that only gives you access to a website and a myriad of white papers. The National Conference is now upon us and you have a chance to act. So, consider this me pinning you to the wall.

When you go to SHRM14 – get fully immersed in everything that the conference has to offer. Be intentional in choosing your sessions and get great information that will help you be better in your role within your organization. Go into it seeking the nugget that will transform your approach to HR. Don’t just attend. Be active !!

Hit the Exhibit Hall, the SHRM Bookstore, the various events happening every night and take in all that you can !! Most importantly connected with the other HR pros who will be at the event. You can develop meaningful, professional relationships that could last your entire career. You will be surrounded by people. Be different and engage others instead of rushing from one event to the next.

When that volunteer pinned me to the wall years ago, she lit a fire in me that only continues to grow !! I know that SHRM has its faults and can do things better, just as most organizations do. However, I can only make a difference by being involved. I hope this gives you the spark you need to get involved in HR where you are !! If you get connected to other folks, join a chapter, start an HR blog, etc. you’re taking that next step.

I honestly can’t wait to see each and every person who is going to SHRM14 !! I’ll be the one on fire who will be geeked to meet you !! See you there !!

I Am HR !!

In the classic film Spartacus, Kirk Douglas leads a revolt against Rome. He and his fellow slaves are face-to-face with the Roman troops when the commander demands that Spartacus reveal himself. All of his fellow slaves stand and declare that THEY are Spartacus until the entire throng claims to be Douglas. He stands defiantly facing his enemy while everyone rallies around him. It is timeless and a call to arms for people to support a just cause and overthrow the empire !!

This past week a true revolutionary in our field of HR, Laurie Ruettimann, released her new e-book, I Am HR: 5 Strategic Ways to Break Stereotypes and Reclaim HR. To put it simply, it is magnificent !!

Laurie has been a trendsetter in Social Media and HR for several years. Her punk rock approach to what we do is edgy, challenging and intentional. She hasn’t settled for HR to remain in stasis, and that doesn’t always sit well with people. In fact, I know that people tend to either be hot or cold with Laurie since she rarely takes a stand in the middle of the road.

I respect Laurie for being a boundary stretched in a field that cries out so desperately for this. For too long HR has bemoaned how it “isn’t this” or “isn’t that.” We are the ONLY profession that does this by the way !! Laurie and I have different approaches to being passionate about HR, but I consider her a dear friend who makes me think and not accept the norms that are often set as standards for our industry.

This e-book takes the stereotypes of HR and peels them back. It doesn’t pile on or reinforce them, but it does ask you as the reader to face what we’ve become.

The true appeal to Laurie’s work is that she offers some tangible solutions for each of these stereotypes to be addressed and thwarted. Some HR books give lofty theoretical models filled with catchphrases and false motivation to get you jacked up to “act” into yet another phase of corporate ambiguity. This book doesn’t do that. In fact, Laurie gives real world examples of HR professionals that she has observed as people who break these stereotypes. You can find each of these HR pros active in all facets of the field and from all types and sizes of industries. Ironically, each of the people she lists are also visible and active in Social Media trying to move the entire profession forward as well as where they work.

This book will push you to look introspectively and then ask you to stand and proclaim. I know that when I read it, I readily exclaimed, ” I AM HR !! ” as if I was rallying with Spartacus. I encourage you to download the book, keep it on hand, refer to it often and join the throng to proclaim that YOU ARE HR !!

I Can’t Wait !!

In a few weeks, I will be heading to Orlando, Florida for the SHRM Annual Conference. To say that I’m Geeked would be an undersatement !! It’s a chance to break away from the daily norms and be with 14,000+ of my HR peers. Some may find that overwhelming while I see it as welcoming.

There are many reasons that are making this year’s conference even more intriguing. The obvious item that will gather the most attention will be the next steps in the SHRM Certification transition. I want to see where things will go and it will be great to see and hear things first hand. I also have the great chance to meet with the SHRM Board of Directors as part of the Membership Advisory Committee (MAC). I’m fortunate to be a part of a great team of other volunteer leaders from around the US who are seriously intentional and engaged HR pros.

To top all of this off, as if that wouldn’t be enough already, I get to speak !! When I heard that was going to be a part of the program, I was humbled. I truly was. You see, giving the presentation will be a thrill in itself, but even more than that I’ll be talking to my peers. I have been at many conferences and hear that HR folks want to hear from fellow practitioners. Now I get the opportunity to do that. Wow !!

Conferences give you a chance to meet great HR pros from all over, develop lasting professional relationships and get connected to resources that help you do your job better. If you’re going to SHRM14, I’d love to see you and connect !! I mean that. I try to meet as many folks as I can because I find that I have learned more from these great people over the years than I ever would have on my own.

I know that there are several reasons why people go to conferences, but for me it truly is all the people. It’s fascinating to realize that there are so many others who practice HR and have a chance to do it in various ways !! I also plan to see other sessions from people that take a different look at HR. I look for sessions that stretch and challenge me because I want to bring back items that will allow me to improve HR in my workplace. I don’t want to settle for something or sit through a topic just because it gets a certain level of credit.

So, as my level of excitement continues to grow, I hope to see you !! It would make my Conference to get to see you, meet you and experience it with you. Geeked !!

Image courtesy of blogworld.com

Listen.

Human Resources is often written about in vast layers and fantastic catch phrases !! When I see posts about “harnessing the synergy of human capital” I start to twitch. One of the shortcomings of what we do is that we try to make it harder than it needs to be. I think that HR has fallen into the trap that if we sound like we’re more intricate, then people will give us more credibility.

Weaving a broader web of terms and efforts that keep the “mystique” of HR as our brand lends itself to more confusion than clarification. When I talk to many of my peers, they share that many companies just “don’t get” them. This has to be frustrating for those practicing HR and those who work with them.

I’d like to show you a simple alternative. Listen.

It’s an overlooked skill and attribute that we don’t practice in HR, or in organizations for the most part. Please understand that I’m not talking about the different “types” of listening highlighted in communication models. It’s much more simple than that.

Our employees want people who will take the time to hear what is on their mind. We tend to think that these requests are such a hassle because we have so much more that is important and needs our attention. I have to work myself to not fall into this approach. I think that we consider the request to listen to people difficult because our mind tends to think the worst will occur. If we were honest about it, we tend to be more negative about people than positive. Our minds start to formulate all the “what if” scenarios that are sure to come up when the conversations occur, and they never come true.

Just this past week I had several requests from both Managers and front-line staff to meet with them. This wasn’t on my schedule or in my planner. The fact was that I had some fairly large projects in front of me that were due. I chose to fight the urge to put these requests to the side and went to meet with each person. I’m glad I did. In each situation, I was able to be the sounding board that was needed at that time. The conversations ranged from personal issues outside of work to difficultly with a manager who seems to be ignoring his staff.

Honestly, it was the best use of my time because the challenges that these employees were facing were only going to grow if someone didn’t listen to them. I think there are three keys to making listening work:

Be Available – That sounds simple, but as I mentioned before, we put other things in front of people all the time. Being available takes discipline and a ton of effort. If you do this, you’ll honestly differentiate yourself from most HR practitioners !!

Don’t Seek Solutions – This goes against the grain of who we are. We don’t feel we’re being good professionals if we don’t come up with the perfect solution to everything we face. You may get a chance to offer a solution, but just listen first. Seriously, listen and see where things go before formulating what could be done.

Be Consistent – You’ll do better to listen to all of your employees and not just those who are problems. The more you listen to people the more you learn. This will allow you to be closer to your team members, and chances are you’ll hear things early on and be able to anticipate how things will move.

Listening is something that has taken me years to learn. It’s tough to admit that but it’s true. I know it makes a difference. This week start listening and see what happens !!

Dark Matter

The conversation usually starts out like this . . .

“You’ll never believe what just happened !! I have an employee who . . .”

The conversation unfolds and you find yourself deep inside yet another difficult, dark employee relations issue. Before you can say a word, or offer any insight, the mob (usually folks outside of HR) have gathered their torches and pitchforks ready to unleash their fury in the form of some level of progressive discipline – up to and including termination. At least this time they came to you versus handing out their own type of justice first and expect you to pick up the pieces.

The challenge for you is not only that you are delving once again in the dark matter of people’s lives and in the organization, but how do you keep it up? Seriously. If you are always around the dark side of people’s lives and behavior, how do you not quickly fall into that same black hole?

Have you ever been to an HR Conference? It’s like a dark matter convention. If you listen in on what HR pros are talking about, more often than not, they’re unloading the dark matter situations that they’ve been dealing with since the last conference. It becomes a flurry of “Oh, yeah but let me tell you about this one !!” I don’t fault people for sharing because they’re doing it to try and cope with constantly being surrounded with difficult situations. Some of the stories truly are funny, but most of them are tragic and sad.

Add on to this the constant bombardment of people wanting HR to focus on Employee Engagement, being a great place to work, and building an attractive culture. These are definitely items people would prefer working on. The barrier to doing this is the lurking feeling that the next dark situation is just around the corner.

What can be done to combat this fact of working in Human Resources? How can you make it so that you aren’t consumed with the next negative aspect of human behavior? Is there something that isn’t trite or cutesy like inspirational posters on the wall that no one reads?

There is. It’s not easy, but there is.

I’ve been in HR for over three decades now and I continue to enjoy it more and more each year !! That’s not some motivational quote for a blog. It’s the truth !! Have I been discouraged at times? You bet. It hasn’t been for long though. Here’s what I do to fight the dark matter:

Remember that EVERYONE has value !! – We always talk about employees as if they aren’t people. We also forget that we’re people too. We can’t wait to pull out some manual and address people with policies. You need to address people as people first. If their behavior falls into an area that deserves discipline, then be consistent with it. However, you must meet with the employee first and see what’s happening with them before launching into some short-sighted action just to lessen the pain.

Surround yourself with positive people !! – This is more than the usual “be positive” encouragement. If you are around other HR pros who are positive as well as you are, then you have a community that gives your alternative perspectives to consider.

Have an accountability partner !! – You will slip and get dark. It’s impossible not to. However, you need to have an anchor or two who will be there for you no matter what. They are your “confessor” so that you make your feelings known and they’ll be there for you no matter what is shared or felt.

Be the light in the dark !! – I know this sounds like a catch phrase, but hear me out. You have the choice as to how to approach people every single day. If you think poorly about others, it will show. If people constantly bring a sigh to you and not a smile, then you can see where you are.

Turn that around. I can tell you that it’s worth it. I don’t think being positive is some parlor trick. It’s a way of life. Be that light. Start dispelling the darkness. Your company is looking for it !!

All I Want Is You !!

Desire.

It’s an innate human element. Every person has desires about something. You can determine what those desires are typically by where a person spends their time and money. People can say they desire a variety of things or be more focused. Desires are unique. Even if people are wildly passionate about the same types of things, it’s never really the same.

Desire.

It’s something we want employees to have every day when they come to work. There are countless articles, blogs and efforts about employee engagement. When I see these I think more and more of the effort is on getting “buy-in” as to what a Company offers instead of allowing people to bring their desires to the workplace. We aren’t very comfortable with really allowing people to be who they are.

HR spends an incredible amount of its time and focus on limiting behavior and adding stipulations to systems to make sure people comply and fit in. In fact, most managers talk with the majority of their employees only when needed. That includes sitting down for performance reviews, weekly meetings, etc. More and more of our structures force interactions, but they don’t develop communication or bring out the best in our people.

What if we changed ?? What if HR took the opportunity to be less restrictive and chose to work on ways to bring out the best in people? It’s not the norm in our field by a long shot. It calls for more variety and people assume that more variety will bring instability and chaos. I think that’s not true. There is more variability, but that should allow for genuine diversity and not some trumped up program that makes us “feel better.”

Desire.

Think about it. A workplace that is filled with people who can discuss and share their lives. I don’t think this should be a forced effort in the least. However, HR struggles with this too. I’m not sure why we all have relationships, friendships and interactions rather naturally as a social norm, but we don’t try to foster that in the workplace. I think that if we took the time to not just “talk” with people, but just treat them like the desirous, passionate humans they are, we’d enjoy each other so much more !!

I want to encourage you to take a “U2” approach to this. You have to know that I’m a fierce U2 fan and love all of their work. You could say that following them is one of my desires. One of their fab songs is “All I Want is You.” The song lists many things that someone wants, but the signer responds that all they want is that person. It really is a consuming approach to have the feeling that someone wants you that completely.

I know this is a big step. I also know that it works !! I try to take more and more of my time with my co-workers and find out what drives them. I may not share their same interests, but knowing what they are passionate about is fabulous. It allows me to have more of a connection with them as well as something to check in on when we see each other. It’s very enriching and it makes HR wonderful.

You see in the end – I hope our desire is people.